Hey!
This is an interview I did like a million years ago with Joseph Riggio. It was for my amazing bestseller “how to make a living with nlp”.
I sold millions of copies.
You can get for free for a while by putting your email on the optin box on the upper right corner.
Olivier
Interview:
Interview with Joseph Riggio
Joseph Riggio is the creator of Mythogenic Self and is the president of Applied Behavioral Technologies. (www.appliednlp.com) His training courses are being taught all over the world, in 8 languages. If you want to learn how to start from scratch, build your own field and take it to the world, then listen to what he has to say. One other thing, you’ll absolutely love the insights he gives about coaching!
Olivier – Joseph, could you tell us a little bit about yourself, your organization, what you do and so on?
Joseph – Well, that’s actually quite a big question. The REALLY short version is that I went to university and studied architecture. After practicing as an architect for about eight years, I woke up one morning and decided that I no longer wanted to be an architect, as a way of making my living. I went to my partners, on that day and quit, selling them my share in the practice that we’d built up over four years, for about $10,000.
I didn’t really know what I wanted to do except to “work with people in some way” – so among some other things, to make some pocket money while I decided how to do this, I trained dogs for the next 4 years. While I was doing that I was studying neuro-cognition in a doctoral program and that’s when I started training in NLP, as well.
During that time (this was in 1988), I met Richard Bandler, as part of the practitioner training (NLP) that I was participating in and the impact of that evening was that I’d decided I would do NLP for a living and made a commitment to learning what I needed, to do that. I went on to train under Roye Fraser, for the next five years as a “disciple” or “apprentice” of sorts – kind of like an intensive mentor/student relationship, in an old guild or the martial arts.
While this was ongoing, I was dabbling in building a consulting practice in and around NJ. Then in 1995 I “got it!” and knew it was time to really go out and do something with what I’d been learning and started my consulting and training practice with gusto.
I had established my company Applied Behavioral Technologies, in 1990 and had done a number of consulting projects, in those previous five years, including developing and delivering a world-class sales training program, including an NLP aspect. A Danish company picked up on this training in 1996 and I began delivering it for them worldwide. I started another company with a Danish partner in 1996 to do this, which is called JS RIGGIO INTERNATIONAL, INC., and I’ve been delivering sales training, negotiation training and leadership training, through this company, since then.
We now have the ability to deliver these programs in eight languages (English, Spanish, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Danish and Japanese) and run offices in New Jersey (our headquarters), California, England, Denmark and China (PRC). JS Riggio International, Inc. is one of the most significant international training companies, offering programs based in the NLP technology, with clients in more than a dozen countries worldwide and multi-million dollar sales revenues.
In addition, I’ve been developing my own NLP workshops, based on my years of training with Roye and drawing heavily from my martial arts training and studies in neuro-cognition and philosophy. The primary form of this training is my Mythogenic Self model, which is presented through Applied Behavioral Technologies, Inc. The MythoSelf model addresses personal development from a highly integrated and whole-form way. Most NLP training is built around addressing epistemological issues or how people construct what they know about themselves and their lives, their world-view or, in NLP terms, their map of the world.
The MythoSelf model is built around ontology or how a person knows themselves to be – the issue of their identity, in its most primal form – this is who they are, before they even know themselves. This model allows a person to come to know themselves without the “mask” of culture or conditioning and to learn how to operate out of this position, which has great power and integrity for them.
I’ve been told that this training is very “spiritual” and provokes a profound sense of awakening and reverence in people, for themselves, their lives and also for others. I don’t particularly refer to this training as “spiritual”, however, I can understand how people might say this, as I do agree that the results, of participating in this training, are often profound for them.
I also, on occasion, do training in hypnosis and professional development using NLP based models. I’ve done a few workshops for other NLP trainers in their practitioner and master practitioner programs, usually, they ask me to demonstrate calibration and hypnosis skills, as this is an area within the NLP community where my reputation is best known.
I have a particularly somatically focused way of calibrating and I tend to be both very specific and to notice extremely subtle shifts in micro-muscle changes that generate profound shifts, when integrated into change-work, especially, when combined with hypnosis. I’ve been known to put people into deep somnambulistic trances, simply by having them adjust one particular muscle in their bodies in a particular way, such as flexing the adductor muscle in the inner thigh, up close to the groin and holding that as they access (eye-access), in a particular way.
These days, I find more and more of my time and attention going to helping people start-up as coaches/advisors and consultants, in their own businesses and helping those already in their own businesses, build them up to make them more successful. I’m involved in doing this in a few different ways that I think are highly complementary.
1. I work with individuals one-to-one as an advisor/coach to them.
2. I do workshops, both on my own and with others, to build specific business skills and also NLP and related skills, like hypnosis applications.
3. I work with a few select clients, as a consultant, to actually help them build their business directly – usually those who are working as B2B (business to business) coaches/advisors and consultants, although, I have one or two clients who are more interested in building practices, built around doing private work. I see myself more and more, in the future, doing this as the focus and primary area of my personal practice.
So, that’s where I’m coming from and what I’m up to these days. Oh yeah, I recently bought www.nlp-world.com and NLP World (the magazine) as well and we’re planning to make the first the definitive portal for NLP, on the Internet and the latter the definitive periodical source for NLP, in the marketplace, with a definite emphasis on applications of NLP, especially, as they apply to professionals and business.
Olivier – Coaching is a very popular trend. You offer a seminar on how to make money by being a coach entitled: “Kick-Ass Consulting.” (I love the title!) . Since our listeners are NLPers, I feel they are more than qualified to become efficient coaches. Could you give us some guidelines to become a successful coach?
Joseph – So, you want to know all my secrets! Okay, I’ll pick up the gauntlet and address your challenge. Here goes.
Well, to begin, I agree – coaching is a very popular trend these days. I’m not quite sure if what I do or teach is coaching, as I understand how most people who use that term, to refer to the activity, use it. My experience is that, what most people refer to as coaching, is either based in goal-setting or skills development or a combination of the two.
The coach is expected to help his/her clients to establish and reach their goals, sometimes by addressing skills development or introducing their (the coach’s) specific expertise. What I do is more based in my skills, as an NLP practitioner/Trainer and follows more along with what I do when I do private work with a client.
I elicit from my clients how they are, at their best and from this state, I elicit with them a direction, which will allow them to continue to remain like this – at their best. Then we generalize and integrate this state throughout their lives, along the path of the direction we have established. This is a much more generalized and integrated approach than goal setting, as it allows for a greater spontaneity. It is not based in established pre-fixed or set outcomes, but rather it references and filters what comes up for them, through the intention of holding this state and the path of the direction for their lives that they’ve established.
In addition to my skills in working with them, in this way, if I bring any expertise, it is in the areas of strategy and the analysis of those with whom they interact, to produce their outcomes, through time. I think of my role more as an advisor and consultant than coach – but maybe we’re just talking semantics, here.
To answer your question, the guidelines I’d offer, begin with the single most essential point – “Know Thyself!” I know this guidance isn’t new or particularly clever, however, I believe it’s essential to being truly successful. Only when you know yourself can you be sure when you’re addressing your client or yourself. The biggest skill a coach/advisor/consultant can bring to the party, in my opinion, is clarity. Then and only then, can they offer their particular expertise.
If we’re talking about coaching or advising clients, it’s also significant that you have the skills required to assist people in making fundamental change, not just incremental change. This requires an ability to work outside of cause and effect and linear patterns. NLP is a wonderful skill-set to have access to, in this role, because so much of how a person gets stuck can be discovered, tracked and modified using it. The six questions I’m most likely to ask, in this role, are:
1.”What has to be true for “that” to be true of this person (my client)?” (This is what I refer to as the “Ultimate Meta-Model Question”)
2.”What is it that most limits this person?” (This will always be a function of how they succeed, not how they fail, as most people tend to think.)
3.”What will they (my client) have to give up to get what they want?” (This is related to the idea that they already know how to succeed to the current limits of their success and this way of succeeding limits them from getting to the next level of success.)
4.”What are they (my client) like when they’re at their best and operating with integrity?” (This is related to my comments above regarding my style as a professional advisor and consultant and beginning from what works and generalizing that.)
5.”What is this person’s intent?” (This also refers to my comments about my style and approach with regard to the concept of direction over outcome.).
6.”What would it be like if they were already getting the results they desire?”
Then I help them in organizing themselves, so that they can move beyond what limits them and get those results. These are, in part, my “secrets” to successful consulting. Simply stated, start and end with positive intention from the positive bias. Build “satisfaction” into the system, right at the start and then seek to amplify that experience, as you build the results you’re getting with your clients.
Finally, I want to add that to be successful, a professional coach/advisor/consultant must be focused. They must build the critical
mass of learning and skill to apply themselves, in a laser-like way, to getting the specific and precise results they set out to get. The successful professional will first decide what these are for themselves and only then, will they be able to know how they can help others and where to apply themselves.
Olivier – You created Mythogenic Self. Could you tell us a little bit about this technology and how you created it? Also, how you managed to get
it this popular?
Joseph – As I mentioned above, this model is based in my NLP training and the work I did with Roye Fraser, as well as my study of the martial arts and philosophy. The basis of the model is to lead an individual to find their personal mythology and live their lives through it. This follows the pattern established by Joseph Campbell in his book, “The Hero with a Thousand Faces”, which he referred to as the “Hero’s Journey.” An example of this pattern is played out in many movies, including one of my favorites, the Star Wars trilogy (with Luke Skywalker).
What we do in the Mythogenic Self model is to take a person through their own “Hero’s Journey”. (This term refers to both men and women, in this model.) The NLP model provides us with some of the tools we use to do this, as does hypnotic modeling. The process is equally based in language and somatics. A fundamental component of this model is the belief that you cannot make a change in the mind, without a corresponding change in the body, as they are actually one entity – body-mind, not two, body and mind.
The way it became as popular as it is, I believe, is twofold:
One, it really works – people who participate in MythoSelf training get results in their lives. An example of this is at Applied Behavioral Technologies, Inc., where we’re in the process of building and making available, professional applications of this model. We are presenting this model to businesses, as a leadership development model and have also begun to run a few consulting projects, built around it.
I’m currently working with one client who has a $40 million IT company who wants to grow it to a $125 million dollar company, in the next five years or less, who has retained me, through my company, to bring this model into his business and work with all his managers. In essence, we’ve completely redesigned and rebuilt the organization according to the principals of the MythoSelf model. (I’m not selling it under that name as a B2B product.) We started together 2 years ago and at that time, his business was returning about $12 million/year in revenues, so, we’ve already come a long way. In the process, he’s become a big fan as well.
And two, I’ve stayed with this process, my own learning around and within it, and my commitment to others using and applying it – relentlessly. I think what sometimes appears as skill, or even brilliance, in some cases, is actually more about persistence and tenacity than anything else. With persistence and tenacity, skill and brilliance build, become possible and finally, manifest. Also, I’m unabashedly confident in telling anyone who wants to listen, how I think this process will change their lives (and now their businesses, as well) for the better.
Olivier – You’re using two marvelous marketing strategies: newsletter (e-zine) and Yahoo groups. They are fantastic as they allow you to keep in touch with your customers for free and allow interactivity with them. Have these been effective marketing strategies for you?
Joseph – Yes and primarily for the same reasons I’ve outlined above – I’ve stayed with them long enough, to make an impact. Many people give up, before they’ve given what they’re doing a chance to become effective, for them. There are also other marketing strategies, that we employ, that work brilliantly for us, including finding the very best people we can and creating opportunities for them to do what they want to and become part of what we’re doing, while they do it. You can look forward to more of these efforts becoming obvious, as we continue.
Olivier – People fall in love with NLP, and then they go out and take some seminars and ask themselves: Wow, it’s wonderful! But how do I make a living with that?
Joseph – That’s a great question! It’s the most common question that I’m asked and that is left unasked. I think we’ve addressed this, in many ways already, but specifically regarding NLP – develop their skills to a world-class level. This sounds obvious enough and yet, it is uncommon enough to be a true rarity. I’ve had the pleasure and the honor of working with some of the best NLP people in the world and I can say with great confidence that there are only a handful of them. I like to think that I’ve taken my own advice, in this case and I’ve worked diligently at developing my skills.
My clients recognize the skill and knowledge I bring to them and that’s what makes the difference, more often than not. You don’t develop the level of skills, I’m referring to, in a week or a month or even a year. My observation is that mastery at this level, takes about five years to develop, on average. This is not a function of aptitude or effort, but a function of experience or “time in grade”, as the military likes to refer to it. You just have to allow yourself the time it takes to build it into your bones – repetition is the mother of all skill.
In the meantime, while you’re doing this, spare yourself no amount of effort or money, in doing what it takes, to seek out the very best teachers you can find and spend as much time with them, as you can. Then, work as much as you can, putting what you’re learning into application. Anytime you get a chance, practice what you’re learning, as you go. People will spend four years or so getting a college or university degree and then work for 2 to 10 years in developing their skills in the field, before they really begin to hold senior level positions professionally.
Even the whiz kids of the dot.com craze, realized that experience is the difference that makes the difference, when it comes to sustainable, long-term success. Now the venture capitalists and investment bankers believe it too. To be a professional in many other fields, requires an additional 2 – 4 years of graduate education beyond the first university degree and many years of professional training beyond that, after they have gotten this professional degree.
What would make anyone think that it should be so different for those who want to be successful NLP professionals? Even the NLP professionals who claim that it’s possible, in much less time, have been doing it for at least five years, before anyone was listening to them.
That may not be the answer you were looking for or hoping for, yet it’s the best and most accurate answer I can offer. Now, with that said, it doesn’t mean they can’t be making a living while they’re doing this. What’s important is to bring everything else they have to offer with them, to what they are proposing to offer as NLP professionals. They should focus on what they know and until they have the skills to offer “pure” NLP based services, to the level sufficient to make them the living they desire (this is a lot easier to do at first, if you are willing to be humble), they can combine what they’re learning, with what they already know.
Another critical aspect of this advice, is to remember you don’t have to reinvent the wheel to be successful. Most professionals are successful doing what they’ve learned from others brilliantly, not because they’ve created something new. This is a unique tendency in NLP, because so many people have heard how Bandler and Grinder invented/created/discovered a new field and think they have to
replicate this to be successful. The most successful NLP professionals I know, other than maybe Richard Bandler, are successful because they’re successful at applying the NLP model, to specific applications, as they’ve learned to do it, not because they’ve invented something new. You don’t have to reinvent heart or brain surgery, to be a brilliant and successful surgeon.
Olivier – What would be the 3 best pieces of advice you could give them?
Joseph – I’ve already said it:
1. Build world-class skills.
2. Focus on doing what you know.
3. Don’t think you have to reinvent the wheel.
Olivier – What are the most effective marketing tools you’ve used?
Joseph – 1. I think the Internet and the things I’ve done there, must be
up in the top three.
2. Personal referral/recommendation – mostly, this is a result
of building great skills and doing good work with them.
3. Writing and talking about NLP formally and informally – this
is part of becoming part of the NLP community-at-large.
Olivier – In developing your business, is there one big mistake you have made and if so, how did you overcome it?
Joseph – Probably I’d say I took longer than I needed to, in becoming focused. I overcame it, like I’ve done many other things – I stuck with it, persistence and tenaciousness. What I had to learn is that choosing what to focus on, isn’t as much about giving things up (although, that what it seemed like, before the fact) but rather, about what I most want to be able to be doing. Once I got this point, it became much easier, almost automatic.
The irony is, that once I gave up trying to do everything, for everyone and decided to focus on what to do in a limited way, the success that resulted created the opportunity to do many more things than I would have ever dreamed of doing, before that.
Roye once said to me that I was unwilling to be a “One-trick pony” and yet it was what I most needed to learn to do. At the time, I thought of it as insulting and yet, I recognize there was great value in that advice.
Olivier – Joseph, there are two types of people who are listening to us: newbies who want to get into the business of NLP and already established NLPers.
For the first group I’d like to ask you this question:
Could you just tell us how you would go about creating your own NLP
product/service step-by-step if you were a beginner today and were on a
tight budget?
Joseph – Sure, I wouldn’t.I’d pick one thing that I’d learned while training in NLP, that both fascinated me and I liked doing and I’d do choose to do that, exclusively. I’d think in terms of whom this would benefit the most, what “target” group would gain the most from me, delivering this service to them and I’d target them exclusively.
Then and only then, after I got successful doing this, would I build from there and follow the natural flow. This would allow me to build from success. What’s interesting, is how few beginners seem to be able to follow this advice and how many successful professionals think this way naturally, after 20 or so years of doing it.
Olivier – Also, what resources would you recommend? (Authors, books, tapes etc.)
Joseph – I’d recommend anything that interested and fascinated them, which is related to what they’re doing first. I always recommend Campbell (Joseph) and I’m also a fan of Robert Anton Wilson’s, “Prometheus Rising.” It’s important to build some business skills and there again, I’d recommend that they find the authors/speakers that appeal to them most – there’s always more than one way to build knowledge and skills. Some of my favorites are Michael Gerber, Tom Peters and Margaret Wheatly, for different reasons.
I also like the classics in business by Schumacher and Drucker and would highly recommend both the “Practice of Management” and “Innovation and Entrepreneurship” by him (Drucker), as places to start ‘serious’ study in business. Finally, I think it’s more important to keep learning, than to worry about what you’re reading or listening to, if you find that you start a book or tape and it’s drudgery to get through, unless you know for some reason that what you’re looking to learn is in there and it’s the best or (rarely) the only source for this information, put it aside and read something else, instead. You can always come back to it or you may find that what seemed important, at one point, turned out to not be so important, after all.
On the other hand, I’d also recommend reading some of the business magazines that are out there. These days some of my favorites include: Business 2.0, Harvard Business Review and on occasion Inc. I also read the Economist, when I get my hands on a copy or when the cover story particularly interests me (then, I’ll actually buy a copy). I’ll read Selling Power, on occasion, as well and I’m a big fan of Utne Reader (the only magazine I regularly read cover to cover, other than Business 2.0, these days). I can’t seem to get through either Fast Company or Wired, although I know some colleagues who think very highly of these publications, as well.
My final advice would be to bridge the gap, between gathering enough information from a number of difference sources, to become well and broadly read and also to go deep enough, to get the value from what you’re reading and studying – a little tricky at times and very possible, if you put some attention on it.
Olivier – Now, for the already established NLPers:
Are there 2 or 3 common mistakes you see NLP business owners make that are costing them a lot of money?
Joseph – Same-same, not focusing enough, is the first and foremost – focus is the difference that makes all the difference. Then, after focus, is throwing money at things, in an effort to “solve some problem.” This is a fear-based response. The idea is that if they spend enough trying to fix what’s wrong, not just with money, but also with their time, attention and energy, as well, they’ll have to succeed, in getting past the limitation, that the problem presents.
Usually, this is accompanied by worry and concern, with what will happen to them (and their businesses), if they don’t solve the problem.
The opposite is also true – not spending enough time, attention, energy and money on getting what they want, as an outcome. This is the reverse of the above mistake, in that instead of determining the specific outcome that they want to produce in their business, they try anything and everything hoping that something will work – this is a result of insufficient time, attention and energy devoted to building great solutions, regardless of and in spite of, any perceived problems.
Then, even when they do decide upon an outcome, they don’t build the solution that will get them there, because they won’t make the investment in time, attention, energy and money. In this case, it’s a function of both accessing the resources and building the context, in which success becomes inevitable.
This is many times, a function of sticking with “it” long enough, once again – instead of looking for the more interesting, new and exciting thing to do, they should perfect what they already do and then perfect that again. Do this for 20 years and you’ll build a world-class reputation for excellence in service and in innovation while you’re at it – two real assets in building a successful business, by any standards.
Olivier – In your opinion, what are the best ways-strategies to make a lot of money with NLP?
Joseph – This sounds like the “Magic-Bullet” question. I really don’t have an answer that’s a lot different from the ones I’ve listed above. Get really good at what you do; focus and do it long enough to get your outcomes. What I can offer is that there are huge areas of opportunity that seem to be looming on the NLP professional horizon. One of the areas that I think is interesting, right now, is for profit education.
There are tons of operators of private schools, from nursery schools to secondary schools and colleges (both professional/technical and academic), who are running for profit operations. These folks would benefit greatly from access to NLP technology. At the lower grades, it would improve their abilities to get results with students and run their businesses more effectively and at the higher levels, it would be great to make it available, as part of the curriculum, to get more success from the students, directly. Another area, is in doing modeling projects.
There’s great opportunities out there for NLPers who are good at modeling, to build “best-practice” models, in all kinds of areas, but if I were going to mention just one, it would be in healthcare administration and operations, as my example. I also think that the whole area of coaching and consulting will remain viable, for those with good skills. What I’d be thinking about is, how to build a successful business, outside of NLP training, if I were coming to NLP today, and it’s my advice for new practitioners, as well.
What will always serve those who are striving to be successful, at building businesses, is the ability to market themselves and their businesses well. At the initial stages, as a sole practitioner, I’d recommend they take a look at Jay Conrad Levinson’s advice for “Guerrilla Marketing” and pick one or two strategies that appeal and seem to apply and stick to those. At the next level, are a bit more sophisticated techniques, like making presentations and I’d recommend some of the Tom Peters material, here.
Then, there’s large-scale marketing, for a significant investment and at this point, I’d recommend hiring a professional to assist, if at all possible. I tend to follow the advice given to young attorneys, “A lawyer who represents himself/herself has a fool for a client.”
Olivier – When starting a business, sometimes fear stops us. What technique or resources would you recommend to overcome this challenge?
Joseph – You’re kidding me about this one, right? This is for NLPers, isn’t it? If they can’t answer this, they aren’t ready to help others yet. I’d recommend going back to whomever they got their training with and ask them. If they don’t get a good answer, they should get their money back and use it to come to a MythoSelf training and then plan on coming to “Kick-Ass Consulting” with John LaValle and me.
Really, it’s the basis of the work I do, with my professional clients. I help them build the skills, confidence and focus to apply them to growing the businesses they dream about running. Usually, fear is about not knowing what to do or how to do it, not fear itself.
It’s essential to start from skills and then you can build the confidence and focus you need, to not just begin, but to succeed beyond your wildest imagination. It’s a step-by-step process. Every journey begins not just with a single step, but a single step in the proper direction. Keep it simple, discover what you’re good at (or get the learning to become good at something), focus on what you want to attain, focus on how you want to get there and take action – endlessly notice what the results of your efforts are and refine and perfect your skills and your approach. Do this long enough and you won’t remember just when it happened, but you will have already become a success.
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